and they can't tell us is if this will make us any safer. what we want to see is if we are going to spend this money, borrow it from china or our kids, we need to make sure that we are getting our money's worth and it is supporting what we intended it to. which is to increase security of our most humble cities. charles: senator coburn, where does the buck stop on this kind of stuff? these guys have a lot of this money. they can do things like this. is there any specific person who has ever been held accountable for this? >> the people you should hold accountable is not the agency. we are allowing the agency to do this. we see waste and stupidity. the fact that we don't have a metric to measure, and we don't know how the money is spent, there are no follow-ups, it just shows the competency of the agency, but also the competency of washington in terms of doing what they're supposed to be doing. charles: on that note, we are talking about the fiscal cliff. earlier today, president obama brought the debt ceiling debate, or would be debate into t